Mom Barb here. I really need some imput from multiple male cat Moms (and Dads). Recently Gandalf has started marking. I have been doing a lot of reading and most of what I have read suggests that the cause is stress.
I did change the litter about a month ago, so that could be part of it. I plan to change it back to see if that helps.
The most likely stress factor is Whitey. He simply will not leave Gandalf alone. Ever! I'm surprised Gandalf has any furs left on his head at all. Grayson and Gandalf's relationship has changed drastically. Grayson is now the lone mancat out because Whitey is always with Gandalf.
Grayson still does not like Whitey. After 6 months there are still daily hissy fits and whapathons. Grayson will come all the way across the room for the sole purpose of whapping Whitey.
I really miss the realtionship that Gandalf and Grayson had before Whitey came. It was a match made in Heaven.
My parents are stressed because they now have to check to be sure Gandalf has not sprayed their furniture before they can sit down. And then there is All.The.Cleaning!
I know I'll probably get a lot of negative comments, but I do need some constructive suggestions. If I can't turn this around very soon I may have to either rehome Whitey or find a No Kill shelter that will take him. And then there's sweet Gracie. I don't know what I am going to do about Gracie. I love them both but I need to do what's best for everyone, but my first obligation is to Gandalf and Grayson.
I welcome your suggestions.
Hi Barb, Island Cats' mom here. I assume you have ruled out all medical reasons for Gandalf's behavior. Are you using feliway? You'll want to use the plug-ins all over the house. It might help. I had a cat that sprayed everywhere all the time too. I ended up consulting a veterinarian behaviorist who gave me some good suggestions as well as recommending anti-anxiety medication. Now I know I might get some flack from people suggesting meds, but it made a huge difference in my cat and I was definitely at my wits' end. You may want to talk to to your vet about what to do. I sure hope you can get this under control because we would be so sad to see Whitey go to another home.
ReplyDeleteAnd don't feel bad about Grayson not liking Whitey. After a year and a half I still cannot have Wally and Zoey together without WWIII breaking out. Needless to say, I am working with a vet behaviorist trying to work this out with them.
Yes, I have ruled out medical. Gandalf does have FLUTD, but it is well under control.
ReplyDeleteAnd I do feel quite badly. First off, Grayson has lost his best friend, Gandalf. Whitey is always on the defensive anticipating getting whapped, and on the offenseive to stay next to Gandalf. And poor Gandalf can't turn around without Whitey grooming him.
Ouch. I'm so sorry. I've been here; two male kittens were born under my shed and I brought them inside to get them through the first weeks of life. It didn't go well; my male Toby was very upset and jealous. He didn't spray but he did start pulling out his fur. And it got worse as time went on, not better. And I kept thinking... I just want things to be the way they were, with my Toby and Leia, the relaxed atmosphere we had.
ReplyDeleteWe did try Feliway spray and plug ins. Didn't really help with us but some swear by it. There is always feline anti anxiety meds, though truly I think that's a very drastic step. Probably the best suggestion is to contact your vet and see if they know someone looking for a cat.
I'm truly sorry you are in this position. You have my deepest sympathies. It's incredibly painful.
It truly is painful. I adore Whitey. He is the most lovingest, kissingest cat I've ever seen.
ReplyDeleteDaisy's "mom" here:
ReplyDeleteBefore we adopted Harley, Daisy didn't even know how to hiss or growl. Now that Harley is always trying to jump on her to play or chasing her all around, she hisses and growls all the time! The Feliway diffusers did help, but I'm guessing you have already tried that.
Yes, I've tried Feliway and it does not help.
ReplyDeleteMy whole house smells of vinegar now, because I read that cats hate the smell and it discourages them from marking there. That doesn't seem to help either. So I've been cleaing everything with it... and I hate the smell of vinegar, too.
Rusty's Mom here. I'm sorry that I can't offer any help or suggestions. I've never experienced this problem. I hope that you can get it resolved without a lot of turmoil. I'm sending you best wishes.
ReplyDeleteOhhh Barb, we don't have any answers. We had a male cat that used to mark years ago, and he didn't have any fur siblings to cause the stress.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the moving and change in activity could be the cause too.
Barb, I was told not to use vinegar to clean cat urine. You're better off using Nature's Miracle or one of the other cleaners like that.
ReplyDeleteI have rehabilitated and rehomed 4 cats I have gotten back from homes due to spraying and urinating outside the litterbox. I have not been successful with only 2 cats. I also use feliway plugins and think they might be about 75%. I have used various anxiety meds with varying results.
ReplyDeleteDisco, my Sphynx, has been the most difficult to solve, but currently is doing very well, but I think it is because I am now down to 4 cats who get along quite well.
If you read back in my blogs, you will see that recently I did have to make the difficult decision to euthanize a cat as he had been in 4 homes and was still spraying, even on anxiety meds and even in his last home where he was the only cat.
I rehomed a 5 year old neutered boy that had a long, almost 4 year, history of spraying and going through my rehab here, he still would spray by the bedroom door where he could smell the other cats. But he has been in his new home 6 months now, as an only cat, and is doing great. She even took him to her families for Christmas for 3 weeks and they have other pets and he did ok there too, but she kept him confined to her bedroom.
We do not recommend vinegar either, and I have had the best success with Stink-Free and D-Stroy. I will email you with info on those products as well as info on anxiety meds and some websites on this behavior, too.
We wish we had more constructive help too. We had our male cat Iggy who really disliked Georgia and he would pee on the carpet. The advantage of that was that cats dislike citrus so I'd leave orange peels on the carpet and let them dry and that seemed to help (of course he'd always find somewhere else to go).
ReplyDeleteIt is so frustrating to feel like you can't live in your own home--and then to see the third cat interactions too--at least it was just Ig and Georgia not liking each other much.
You know how much I love Whitey and short of telling you to just put him on a plane to Oregon, I'm still thinking there are things that can be done. With 8 cats we have had our share of struggles. We had Nigel on prozac for 3 months before we began to taper him off. I can't say enough for what it did for him and the whole family. He's now drug free but if problems ever come up again I'd have him on it.
ReplyDeleteThe biggest problem we have is with Cecilia and Madison. They get along famously with each other, but neither of them get along with the others. We are fortunate enough to have a separate workshop that is a happy home for the 2 of them. They mix well with the others outside, but if Cecilia is in the house, Ginger will stop using the litter box. If Madison is around too many other cats, he sprays. So we have 6 who mostly get along and 2 that get along, but those 2 groups are mostly separate.
I would highly recommend using a professional cat behaviorist. I know of a very good one (our cat sitter) and she mostly works over the phone. Her website is:
http://www.thecatbehaviorclinic.com/
Please whatever you do, let us all help you to avoid Whitey going to a shelter. I will take him if it comes to that. I know how much you love him and want to make this work.
As strange as this may sound adding Gracie to the mix may improve things. Males generally do better with a female addition and hopefully one of the boys will become her sidekick.
ReplyDeleteScylla is growling and hissing at Artemisia, but it is very strange as she is also acting friendly and playing with her too. AT THE SAME TIME. Luckily the hissing and growling doesn't bother Artemisia at all.
Oh Barb, I am so sorry you are having these problems. I don't have any expert advice to offer, just a cat-lovers' viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteMy advice is: don't make any hurried decisions ~ take your time. Because if the cats aren't getting along right now, then a week or two more won't make much difference to them. Give them a chance to settle in with Gracie ~ just in case her presence helps. And try all the good advice that's been suggested. Then if all else fails ....
I can understand why you feel upset about Gandalf and Grayson's lovely relationship being disturbed. They were with you first and even though I adore Whitey (and would be VERY sad to see him move on) I would understand. Obviously I hope and pray that it works out because Whitey has been through so much already and he's SO lovable.
Good luck.
Jan (Milo and Alfie's mom)
A few years ago, I had 2 males and 1 female cat. The oldest male went through periods of refusing to pee in the box - no matter how clean it was. No medical reasons for it, purely behavioral. When I moved to a new place and he was still doing it, I did a lot of research and ran across a product at Petsmart that others raved about. It was Dr. Elsey's Precious Cat Ultra Litter Attractant. You just put a little in the litter box. It smells pretty earthy but not unpleasant. It did the trick for him, and I was able to quit using it very quickly. I don't know if it will work for you, but it's not very expensive and may be worth a try. Of course, it won't solve the problem of the cats hating each other. I know how heartbreaking that can be, and I hope things work themselves out.
ReplyDeletejana (now with 2 girls, Fuzzy and Zoe)
I can't really help. Tamir is my "spray boy". I tried the Feliway diffusers, drugs, all the clean up product known to man. Nothing worked for us. He has settled on a "spot" in my laundry room and I keep cleaner and lots of paper towels there. It's not a good solution, but it's the only one that's worked. I would love to find an answer.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I cant help because I only have GJ I can smpathise with your heatbreaking problem. I realy hope some of the others suggestions help and that ii works out for you. Carol
ReplyDelete#1 here. So sorry you are having this problem. I have read about usage of both anafranil and buspirone to resolve such problems. I will also ask Uncle u as I know he has dealt with the issue more than once.
ReplyDeleteHere's what worked at our house. When Kelly got sick Nicky started to spray everywhere. Both were neutered, Nicky at only a few months old, but the guess is that Nicky was trying to take charge as the alpha male.
ReplyDeleteFeliway did not help. Our vet next prescribed Prozac, which we have compounded into a cream and rub into Nicky's ears every evening. Nicky hasn't sprayed much at all since going on the meds, which is a big relief.
The one time we tried reducing his dosage, Nicky began to mark territory again, so he's back up to the original amount.
He's happy and as loving as ever, and we don't have to buy Nature's Miracle by the gallon. We hope you find a solution (so to speak) for your furry family's problems too, and soon...
Hi, not an expert but is there any chance of moving Whitey in with Gracie for awhile? It would give Gandalf and Grayson a break. I feel for you. I can see you love them all and its breaking your heart. You can do it just keep your resolve! Having the parents there also adds a different dimension which might inadvertantly add to the stress. I hope it works out. Best wishes!
ReplyDeleteI don't have advice to give, but I sympathize very much. I really hope everything works out.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could offer some advice, but I've only had Praline for 14 years and I've avoided bringing in another for fear the stress it would cause her. I think people on the CB have some wonderful suggestions and I really hope everything works out because it's obvious you love all of the kitties.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry you are having so many problems, but unfortunately I have no suggestions. I hope you can find something that works as Whitey is so adorable, as are Gandalf and Grayson of course.
ReplyDeleteHi. Yes, definitely change your litter back. Changing litter can cause many problems. Oh, and how many litter boxes do you have? According to behaviorists, you should have 1 box per cat, plus 1 more. So, for the 3 boys living in the house, you should have 4 litter boxes. And then Gracie has her own box in her room.
ReplyDeleteAnd we have Feliway diffusers in many rooms. I think we have 7 in use now. They are expensive, but they help some. With 10 cats, and tons of issues, we have numerous problems, and Feliway helps.
Obi will occasionally leak when he is cornered by Dorf or G.T. Someone also occasionally sprays by a window when an outside cat looks in the window.
Someone suggested that you put Whitey in the room with Gracie, and that would definitely let Gandalf and Grayson have some quality time together.
You may also try a different vet. I know, those are words that will get me dirty looks, but we have now settled on "cats only" vets, and they seem to know the proper drugs to distribute, and which ones work best.
And adding Gracie to the mix may have messed things up a bit too much for Gandalf. Each additional cat adds to the problem. Multiple cats means multiple problems.
Good luck.
Forgot to tell you about anxiety meds. We have tried numerous meds for several cats. And our latest vet had suggested medicating G.T., who is an instigator against Obi, with anxiety meds. This would work, except that G.T. can't be medicated with anything in the throat. I can give him shots for allergies, but he doesn't take pills. So, you might try anxiety meds on Whitey.
ReplyDeleteLuf, Us
There is also an anti-anxiety plug in you may want to try. The newest addition or change is most likely the cause. I'd give the scent or meds a try. Good luck
ReplyDeleteWe are so sorry to hear this. We know how this situation is frustrating you and making you upset at the same time. We don't have any problems with males marking, but Maggie May will urinate on towels on the floor or on cat and dog beds. We know it's not medical, it's behavioral and started after Cal died last March. We are still trying to find a solution, so we feel your pain. I do remember our vet put Cal on ovaban once when he was having some behavioral problems. Our neighbor's cat is also on it for attacking and fighting with neighborhood cats. It might be something to look into. Also possibly prozac for a short course. Good luck!!
ReplyDeleteHi Barb, With 7 males, we too have marking problems. Moseley was a peer and he had to have his own room with his own Feliway and he was on anti-anxiety meds (but there was more to his problems). We also have intermitten problems with Nick and now possibley Snafu. All the advice was said here in your comments. #1 Change the litter back, #2 Ditch the vinegar #3 Definately bring Gracie into the fold. They know she's there. The (sooner) younger she is the better. In stages, of course, sniffing through the door, between a babygate, then one boy at a time in with her and then her out in the mix for short supervised visits and a place she can hide. She will make a difference and perhaps Whitey will take to mothering her. It was amazing how much our Nick and Wizard mothered Penny when she was a kitten. #4 Keep the Feliway going, it takes time, often 2 weeks to a month. #5 Meds can often do the trick. There are different types, try them all, but give them time. #6 Prayer. I'll be doing that for all of you. That's all I've got - Keep us posted.
ReplyDelete~Lisa
I can't imagine rehoming Whitey after all he's been through... My spraying cat is actually a female (Gingy). She sprayed and peed outside the litter box in her previous home, which is why her previous owner gave her up when she moved to a new rental home. And after four years, she and Sylvie still don't get along well...there are daily hissy fits, with Sylvie growling whenever she sees Gingy and Gingy trying to lunge at Sylvie, which makes Sylvie scream and sometimes pee herself. It's not like the warfare is constant, but it does happen at least once a day. So Gingy has destroyed many of my books, a sewing machine case, and anything else within reach of her "spritzer." Probably if i were living with another human they would make me get rid of her. But i feel an obligation to give her as comfortable a life as possible. I tried putting her on elavil, an anti-anxiety medication, and it seemed to make no difference at all. Dr Dodson recommends Prozac and perhaps that will work for Grayson...it won't restore his relationship with Gandalf, but maybe he won't feel so anxious. Good luck, Barb, you have my complete sympathy in this difficult balance of feline and human needs.
ReplyDeleteI heard back from Uncle U and he also used Anafranil (successfully), after making sure there were no underlying urinary tract problems.
ReplyDeleteWe're keeping all paws crossed. We adore all of them from a distance and would hate to see you have to separate them.
I'm so sorry you are having spraying problems. It is not fun at all. Just after we moved to Sydney, Suey's dad went away again and it was if she forgot how to squat in the box. I spent many hours in tears scrubbing urine out of the grout, so I can understand how horribly stressful it is.
ReplyDeleteOne bit of advice given to us was to put on cotton cloves, and rub the cat's faces (focusing on the areas they rub against when facial marking). Then, wipe down skirting boards and door jams at cat height. It transfers the cat's facial pheromones onto the surfaces, and helps to remind them that they are home and safe. There is a good chance that the move has unsettled Gandalf, so it might help some.
For Feliway to be effective, it needs to be in as enclosed an area as you can manage. Otherwise, it is effectively diluted. Is there a specific area that Grayson likes to hang out in for extended periods? That would be the ideal place to set up the diffuser.
When Evie was staying with us, Fui got very unsettled. He didn't spray, but he was anxious and I could tell he was unhappy. I started adding Bach's Rescue Remedy to his water, and noticed a marked difference. He seemed to feel more comfortable in his home. The main sign for me was that he would walk past Evie's room, rather than run.
The other thing that might be worth a try is applying something like Wound Guard to Gandalf's head. It is a bitterant spray that is often used for animals who like to lick and chew at surgery sites after operations. If Whitey's grooming is causing a problem, it could be a good way to deter him.
I hope there has been something here that is of some help. Good luck! :)
-Lissa.
There is a lot of good advice here. I think between going back to the old litter, keeping the Feliway going, considering medications and using some rescue remedy, you may see a difference. I liked the idea of putting some bitter apple spray on Gandalf's head - I vet that would keep the grooming from Whitey at a minimum! We'll be praying for you too, I can't imagine Whitey having to leave you, I know it would break your heart.
ReplyDeleteHugs,
Helen
I bet, not "I vet" - HaHaHaHa!
ReplyDeleteKari here. I think that Gracie may be the saviour of the situation. She may diffuse your negative male dynamic. Some years ago, I had three cats and there was always an " odd man our" situation. Attacks, urine everywhere! Into this horrible situation (where I was even being attacked) I brought a homeless cat (long story) and almost immediately an injured cat. Amazingly, the situation diffused itself with the addition of the additional animals.
ReplyDeleteI have also used medications and have found them successful. I use Dr Elsey's Precious Cat and I never switch. I have also found that too few boxes sets off the spraying.
Do not use vinegar. It seemed to encourage out sprayers. Right now, if you neutralize the cat odor, it may calm the cats and parents as well.I use a black light (buy the big one in Home Depot. The little ones in the pet shops are worthless.) I use Natures Miracle on the walls, woodwork and solid surfaces. On rugs and upholstery, the very best product I have ever used is called ZEP professional strength
High Traffic Carpet Cleaner. This is not for use in machines. I don't let the product remain on my carpet,I blot and blot. Must use with caution. Contact me if you want to know my full procedure.
Before you would ever think of re homing Whitey or Gracie, email me. Please.
(((hugs))) Barb. I know how awful it feels for everyone to be so stressed, though our problem was with a dawg and not kittehs. Because I am far from a kitteh expert, I was going to suggest talking to Parker's Mom, Daisy's Mom, & Forty Paws' Mom - Parker's Mom and Daisy's Mom have talked me down from the ledge once or twice. ;) I was also going to suggest Feliway and Rescue Remedy in their water/food, too. My last suggestion may seem goofy, but I don't think it hurts to try. Take a quiet moment and tell Gandalf that marking isn't allowed. Acknowledge what's going on and tell them that you love them and that you need the house to be one of peace and love. EG and I "talk" about that sort of thing about once a week. Now that I've outed myself as a true CCL, I'll leave it at that. Lots of hugs to you. I'm sorry that things are so rough right now.
ReplyDelete~Darci
Meowm here.....I have read thru the suggestions and don't have a thing to add. I have been having trouble with Orion peeing in bad places---most notably my bed. I know it is behavioral--so I understand a bit of how you are feeling. I sincerely hope that something from all these suggestions helps...I would really hate to see Whitey go...although it looks like a few people would be happy to take him. If it turns out you do have to re-home Whitey and he needs to be transferred cross country- I would be happy to drive a leg of the journey if he comes this way. I will be praying and I will get the boys to purring for all to work out with your crew.
ReplyDeleteWe're really sorry to hear about your troubles. We have no suggestions, but wanted to register our love and moral support for you all..
ReplyDeleteHugz,
Freya, teego, mommacat and daddycat.
I am so sorry to hear about your problem. Poor guy. I wish I could help, the only thing I can think of is Felway or something like that. Sending purrs and prayers to you and Gandalf. Keep us posted.
ReplyDeleteWe are sad to hear about the problems you are having. It is too bad the feliway doesn't help - that was what we tried and it did help a bit. I agree about switching the litter back, and possibly adding a box. We haven't had the anti-anxiety meds but that sounds like it could be a good option. We have used the Zep that Kari mentioned and it is great - we used it on the area under our stairs where the cats always peed when we took the carpet up and it really helped (we didn't start the feliway until the new floors were in). We also like the brands Kids and Pets and Out - both seem to do a very good job. After everything Whitey has gone through I hope that you can find a solution. WE are sending you lots of purrs and prayers - we know this must be tough on you!
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to hear that things are stressful in your house. We don't have any experience with this, so I'll just purr extra hard for all of you. Hopefully, this will be resolved soon.
ReplyDeleteHi Barb, 7 boyz here and yes there have been issues covering all above mentioned. Tinker has been my only inappropriate eliminator. First it happened in '06 no crystals were found in his urine but this time they were detected plus some mucus. The Vet said they could have been there the first time but not visible. I clean up floors and their pans with alcohol. Spray the furniture with febreze fabric refresher plus use the febreze duel plugins, BTW, you can pop the tops off and refill with other oils. As I mentioned on the Boyz Blog, I am now using Dr. Elsey's Senior litter for urinary health. The Boyz love it and it lasts 3 times longer than most litters. I only have 3 pans, one on the lower floor, one in Mom's bathroom for Tang & Teak that sleep in her room at night and the automatic pan in the laundry room.
ReplyDeleteCats certainly have a harder time adjusting to change than dogs. Your boys are having lots of changes, hopefully your patience will win out! Purz & Prayers for success=^Y^=